U.S.
And Lebanon
By Seymour Hersh
26 May , 2007
Raw
Story
HALA GORANI:
Well, investigative journalist Seymour Hersh reported back in March
that in order to defeate Hezbollah, the Lebanese government supported
a Sunni militant group, the same ones they're fighting today. Seymour
joins us live from Washington. Thanks for being with us. What is the
source of the financing according to your reporting on these groups,
such as Fatah al-Islam in these camps of Nahr el Bared, for instance?
Where are they getting the money and where are they getting the arms?
SEYMOUR HERSH: The key player
is the Saudis. What I was writing about was sort of a private agreement
that was made between the White House, we're talking about Richard --
Dick -- Cheney and Elliott Abrams, one of the key aides in the White
House, with Bandar. And the idea was to get support, covert support
from the Saudis, to support various hard-line jihadists, Sunni groups,
particularly in Lebanon, who would be seen in case of an actual confrontation
with Hezbollah -- the Shia group in the southern Lebanon -- would be
seen as an asset, as simple as that.
GORANI: The Senora government,
in order to counter the influence of Hezbollah in Lebanon would be covertly
according to your reporting funding groups like Fatah al-Islam that
they're having issues with right now?
HERSH: Unintended consequences
once again, yes.
GORANI: And so if Saudi Arabia
and the Senora government are doing this, whether it's unintended or
not, therefore it has the United States must have something to say about
it or not?
HERSH: Well, the United States
was deeply involved. This was a covert operation that Bandar ran with
us. Don't forget, if you remember, you know, we got into the war in
Afghanistan with supporting Osama bin Laden, the mujahadin back in the
late 1980s with Bandar and with people like Elliott Abrams around, the
idea being that the Saudis promised us they could control -- they could
control the jihadists so we spent a lot of money and time, the United
States in the late 1980s using and supporting the jihadists to help
us beat the Russians in Afghanistan and they turned on us. And we have
the same pattern, not as if there's any lessons learned. It's the same
pattern, using the Saudis again to support jihadists, Saudis assuring
us they can control these various group, the groups like the one that
is in contact right now in Tripoli with the government.
GORANI: Sure, but the mujahadin
in the '80s was one era. Why would it be in the best interest of the
United States of America right now to indirectly even if it is indirect
empower these jihadi movements that are extremists that fight to the
death in these Palestinian camps? Doesn't it go against the interests
not only of the Senora government but also of America and Lebanon now?
HERSH: The enemy of our enemy
is our friend, much as the jihadist groups in Lebanon were also there
to go after Nasrullah. Hezbollah, if you remember, last year defeated
Israel, whether the Israelis want to acknowledge it, so you have in
Hezbollah, a major threat to the American -- look, the American role
is very simple. Condoleezza Rice, the secretary of state, has been very
articulate about it. We're in the business now of supporting the Sunnis
anywhere we can against the Shia, against the Shia in Iran, against
the Shia in Lebanon, that is Nasrullah. Civil war. We're in a business
of creating in some places, Lebanon in particular, a sectarian violence.
GORANI: The Bush administration,
of course, officials would disagree with that, so would the Senora government,
openly pointing the finger at Syria, saying this is an offshoot of a
Syrian group, Fatah al-Islam is, where else would it get its arms from
if not Syria.
HERSH: You have to answer
this question. If that's true, Syria which is close -- and criticized
greatly by the Bush administration for being very close -- to Hezbollah
would also be supporting groups, Salafist groups -- the logic breaks
down. What it is simply is a covert program we joined in with the Saudis
as part of a bigger broader program of doing everything we could to
stop the spread of the Shia, the Shia world, and it bit us in the rear,
as it's happened before.
GORANI: Sure, but if it doesn't
make any sense for the Syrians to support them, why would it make any
sense for the U.S. to indirectly, of course, to support, according to
your reporting, by giving a billion dollars in aid, part of it military,
to the Senora government -- and if that is dispensed in a way that that
government and the U.S. is not controlling extremist groups, then indirectly
the United States, according to the article you wrote, would be supporting
them. So why would it be in their best interest and what should it do
according to the people you've spoken to?
HERSH: You're assuming logic
by the United States government. That's okay. We'll forget that one
right now. Basically it's very simple. These groups are seeing -- when
I was in Beirut doing interviews, I talked to officials who acknowledged
the reason they were tolerating the radical jihadist groups was because
they were seen as a protection against Hezbollah. The fear of Hezbollah
in Washington, particularly in the White House, is acute. They just
simply believe that Hassan Nasrallah is intent on waging war in America.
Whether it's true or not is another question. There is a supreme overwhelming
fear of Hezbollah and we do not want Hezbollah to play an active role
in the government in Lebanon and that's been our policy, basically,
which is support the Senora government, despite its weakness against
the coalition. Not only Senora but Mr. Ahun, former military leader
of Lebanon. There in a coalition that we absolutely abhor.
GORANI: All right, Seymour
Hersh of "The New Yorker" magazine, thanks for joining us
there and hopefully we'll be able to speak a little bit in a few months'
time when those developments take shape in Lebanon and we know more.
Thanks very much.
HERSH: glad to talk to you.
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