Seymour M Hersh
From My Lai To Abu Ghraib
By Seymour M
Hersh, Andrew Burgin & Matthew Cookson
01 June, 2005
Socialist
Worker
In 1968 you exposed
the US massacre at My Lai in Vietnam. Last year you exposed the torture
of Iraqi prisoners in Abu Ghraib. How can things like this happen when
those prosecuting the war talk about bringing freedom and
democracy to the world?
Unfortunately, this
is what happens in warfare. We were censored during the Second World
War we never saw photographs of dead soldiers in the US. We never
got a sense of how the war was.
For us, the war
was about our boys fooling around with scarves, no helmets and sticking
up their thumbs. The nips had their cockpits closed
they had these helmets. We had this amazing Hollywood version of war.
My Lai told us that
the we dont fight wars any better than the nips and
the krauts. Nobody fights wars well its always
brutal and it always involves a lot of abuses. These things happen in
war, and to think otherwise is madness.
So we in the US
are always naive. We thought we could do it better. And whats
pernicious about Guantanamo, Iraq and Afghanistan is that, as bad as
we think it is, the whole story isnt out yet. Its even worse.
The American people
are gradually getting into this. But John Kerry, the Democratic presidential
candidate, refused or wasnt willing to deal with the war.
When people ask
me what I think of Kerry not bringing up Abu Ghraib, I always have a
pat answer, Youve got to admire his brilliance in not dealing
with the war, because now hes president, which shows he was right!
The only shot Kerry had was to make the war an issue and he didnt
do it.
Tell us about
US defence secretary Donald Rumsfelds decision to introduce a
special access programme involving US forces snatching or
assassinating suspected Al Qaida operatives.
That was an early
decision, and its still going on. We still dont understand
the extent in the US of what we call rendition. This is
the process of getting the name of someone, going in illegally, grabbing
him illegally, taking him some place where the sun dont shine,
beating him up and if he dies, so what?
It used to be called
disappearing in Argentina and Brazil, where it caused an
enormous outcry.
The real shock in
the US is the weakness and the failure of congress. Yes, the presidents
been awful, dubious and craven but thats a given.
Congress has been
much worse. The Democrats have no power at all. The Republicans control
everything. There has been no serious investigation into Abu Ghraib.
Insane legal papers
that came out after the Abu Ghraib story said that the Geneva Conventions
didnt apply. Its very troubling for me as an American, because
its so profoundly against what the whole constitution says.
Although the
prisoner abuse scandals in Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib have been big news,
the British have had their own abuse scandals. Iraqi civilians have
been kicked to death at Camp Breadbasket.
Youve had
the same problems here, although your press has been much better. The
anti-war movement has been very intense here.
The marches that
the novelist Ian McEwan was writing about, we dont see them in
the US. If anything, its backed down a little bit now after the
election. People feel a little bit defeated.
I cant decide
whether our congress is supine or prone, but it doesnt make much
difference. In the US its the absolute failure of the constitution.
The Times in London
published documents about when Bush made his decision to go to war on
Iraq. We should be dealing with the issue that the president of the
US might have made the decision up to one year before going into Iraq,
and had been misleading us.
These are documents
showing that the decision to go to war was taken in April 2002. In Britain
we have families of servicemen killed in Iraq who are calling for a
full public investigation into the decision to go to war.
I watched the British
election and I saw Reg Keys, one of the fathers, make an amazing speech
in Tony Blairs home district. This got no attention in the US
press.
But I think the
worst times are ahead. The next few months are going to be very disturbing
for all of us because Bush has got a real problem in Iraq, and hes
not aware of it.
I dont see
how you can avoid a civil war in Iraq. When that happens I dont
know what theyre going to do. I would guess the number of potential
terrorists has gone up exponentially because of the war in Iraq.
Its a question
of time. Well start seeing more sophisticated people with better
English, who will be able to penetrate visa and customs people in western
Europe and the US. We could be in real trouble we could see a
spreading insurgency.
We dont have
any intelligence on the other side. We have no idea whats going
on in Iraq were just in there diddling. At some point we
might say weve had enough, declare peace and walk out or
be kicked out.
And were going
to have a mess in Iraq. The Sunnis are going half mad worrying about
the spread of Iranian democracy or theocracy into the south of Iraq.
Were seeing profound changes, and theyve been triggered
by the US without much forethought and certainly no afterthought.
Your book, Chain
of Command, shows quite clearly how a small group of neo-conservatives,
such as Paul Wolfowitz and Richard Perle, took up important positions
in the US under Bush. They set about convincing people that the US had
to invade Iraq. How could they get their way?
Democracy must be
a hell of a lot more fragile than we think. A small group, a cult, can
take control of the US so easily. The congress, the press and the military
have all been so weak.
The federal bureaucracy,
where millions of workers dont agree with the president, has been
weak. Its staggering, and it says this isnt as powerful
and strong a democracy as we think.
Whats going
to be the future of our democracy? What would happen in the US if three
crazies walked into a mall and blew themselves up at noon on a Saturday
in three cities? What would we do? Would constitutional rights be further
atrophied? Yes.
I think this is
the most important issue since the Second World War. Bushs decision
to go to war on Iraq was certainly the worst decision a US president
has ever made. The consequences of this have not all been seen yet.
The war is enormously
expensive, with hundreds of billions of dollars being spent. And there
are very serious problems in the army.
Totally but
Bush is going to survive. We have billions of dollars of debt that need
to be floated. I was convinced a year ago that with the dollars
dive against the euro, the economy was going to collapse and the world
market would start buying oil in euros.
Instead what happens
is that oil prices double a boon for Bush. Now the United Arab
Emirates and Saudi Arabia have so much money, theyre throwing
billions into our debt. Bush will get Undersecretary of state John Bolton
as the US ambassador to the United Nations as well. Weve got another
year at least of this guy with full power.
What strategy do
you think has led to the US being in such a mess in Iraq?
All the information
was there. Everyone talks about General Shinseki, the US general who
testified before the Iraqi war that it would take hundreds of thousands
of troops. Wolfowitz immediately denounced and castigated him.
They werent
mad at Shinseki because he used different numbers. They were mad at
him because hadnt he been to all those meetings in the Pentagon
where the neo-cons assured him that you could win the war with 5,000
troops?
Wed go in
and democracy would flow, Saddam would run away, Iran, Syria and what
they call occupied Lebanon would fall, and thered be a new Middle
East. They believe all that stuff.
The problem with
Shinseki was that hed been deprogrammed. He had escaped from the
clutches of the cult. Thats one way of looking at these guys.
If you agreed that
in the months after 9/11 that the path to stopping international terrorism
led to Baghdad, you were promoted.
But if you thought
that it was the dumbest, most insane thing in the world to think that
you were a traitor. You were cut off. You didnt get the end of
the year promotion, or face time with Condoleezza Rice.
Thats how
they did what they did. They were ruthless. You were either on the team
drinking the Kool Aid, like Jimmy Joness followers did in Guyana
in 1978 to commit suicide, or you were out.
Thats what
we have in my country. And a lot of the press also drank the Kool Aid
in the first year.
The left has some
impact, but they all just speak to each other. Theres no real
anti-war movement like there is in Britain. Theres no ability
to get over 100,000 people.
In every war
there is a so called tipping moment, which decides whether
it can be won or not. Do you think weve reached that point?
I dont think
this war has ever been winnable. What is winning? When the
Shia leader Ayatollah Sistani sat out when we attacked Fallujah, the
Sunnis knew there was going to be no peace with the Shia.
Sistani did nothing
to stop the bombing of Fallujah. I dont know why people put so
much hope in him. What else can be done, besides recreating the Iraqi
secret police?
So, youre
pretty pessimistic then?
Totally. The problem
is that theyre not listening. In the US the Republicans have total
control. I cant think of a worse job than being a young Democrat
in the houses. You cant offer an amendment. You cant have
a hearing. All you can do is vote no.
Its unbelievable
what these guys have done. Theyve changed the basic structure.
Its happened
in front of us and everybodys very passive about it. Abu Ghraib
showed the way we treat prisoners and theres been no investigation,
nobody has lost their job. Whats to be optimistic about?
What about the
strength of the anti-war movement and the fact that the Bush administration
is in a very difficult position in Iraq?
Theyre going
to say that Iraq is better off because we came in and brought democracy.
Thats the mantra, Democracy needs to spread. And their
version of democracy means regime change.
I see nothing but
expansion by my country. Were doing operations in north Africa,
theres the whole democracy movement in the former
central Soviet republics, which is very alarming. Theyre getting
rid of one guy for another guy.
A lot of people
dont accept the line thats coming from the White House.
So what if they
dont accept it? These guys dont change it. Im not
trying to say you should get out of the peace business. But Im
saying this is a more entrenched situation.
Vietnam was always
tactical. No matter how big the numbers were, five years after its
over, they want us to come over and play monopoly and build hotels and
do tourism.
This is a war against
Muslims. Five years after this war is over, people are still going to
be dreaming about flying planes into our buildings.
This is different.
Its a strategic war in which we have very little concept of what
were doing. We dont have an endgame.
My country has declared
war on people who are non-citizens. They are constantly diminishing
the rights of non-citizens. They can be kicked out of the country for
the most trivial of offences.
Ive been in
a black mood since September 2001, hanging over me like a penumbra.
The press in the US got better over Abu Ghraib briefly, but it had no
moral leadership.
But Bush and his
people dont react enough. Most of the time they just ignore me.
I read the transcripts
of the Pentagons briefings. The first year of Rumsfeld was a real
love-in. Someone would say, Sy Hersh is at it again and
there would be laughter.
The war has become
a given. Theres no weapons of mass destruction well, it
doesnt matter because Saddams a bad guy. So they win. Nobody
holds Bush to any standard of responsibility the countrys
in chaos, the economy is in chaos.
It troubles me that
theres not a bigger anti-war movement in the US. People in the
US are just sleeping, for whatever reason. But Im doing stuff.
Ive got more stuff to do.
The new paperback
edition of Chain of Command: The road from 9/11 to Abu Ghraib by Seymour
M Hersh is available from Bookmarks, the socialist bookshop. Phone 020
7637 1848 or go to www.bookmarks.uk.com
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