Hurtling
Toward The Abyss
By
Hanan Ashrawi and Jon Elmer
FromOccupiedPalestine.org
25 November, 2003
Jon Elmer, FromOccupiedPalestine.org: The pro-Israel lobby went
on a rabid campaign of defamation and intimidation when you were announced
as the winner of the 2003 Sydney Peace Prize. To certain symbolic lengths,
they succeeded: Sydney University withdrew the use of the Great Hall
for the ceremony, the Lord Mayor of Sydney disassociated the city with
the award. The former chair of the Sydney Peace Foundation was quoted
as having said to Stuart Rees, the current director: "I have to
speak logically. It is either Hanan Ashrawi or the Peace Foundation.
Thats our choice, Stuart. My distinct impression is that if you
persist in having her here, theyll destroy you" [Robert Fisk,
"When did Arab become a dirty word?" Independent, 6 November
2003]. Were you at all surprised by the reaction to your selection?
Hanan Ashrawi:
I was surprised by the intensity of the reaction, and what I call the
hate campaign. I have received many awards and have spoken all over
the world, and this is the first time that such a small minority managed
to spew forth so much poison, lies, disinformation, slander, defamation
I couldnt understand the drive, the motivation of the few hundred
people who managed to create clouds of disinformation in Australia.
I knew that it was
not the whole Jewish community - the Jewish community is not monolithic,
and I got lots of support from the majority of them. It was a very small
minority of extreme right-wing, hard-line enthusiasts, zealots, who
decided that no Palestinian could get any recognition. It was a process
of dehumanization and exclusion.
But it backfired.
It mobilized people who were either intimidated or who were not active.
It also brought out people from the Jewish community who felt that this
was way beyond repair. It did them a disfavour. It brought out the Palestinian
and Arab-Australian community, as well as the peace-camp in Australia.
I was amazed - thousands came out. Two halls were filled, as well as
people outside. The negative protests were a handful, but the positive
protests were in the thousands. So, as usual, they shot them themselves
in the foot, and many of them admitted that they chose the wrong battle
and that they should not have done it.
Elmer: Is
there a level of desperation involved in these hate campaigns?
Ashrawi: Yes,
and I think that there is a level of escalation that comes with having
such an extreme government - this is the most extreme, right-wing, hard-line
government, and the most militaristic and ideological government in
the history of Israel. Sharon notwithstanding: it is the military, the
ideologues and the fundamentalists all together in one government. It
is amazing.
So in a sense they
have legitimized a language of hate and racism and exclusion that was
never acceptable among other governments. So the language of this government,
its hate tactics, and what it has done, has empowered the hate language
abroad.
I think there is
a degree of desperation in that the Israeli occupation is being exposed
for what it is. They can not longer carry things out in secret, in the
dark, whether it is the assassinations, the home demolitions, the siege,
the horrible apartheid wall, the daily and deliberate cruelty to the
Palestinians. Public opinion in the West is shifting, no matter how
much they try and mobilize their own allies and hire expensive Public
Relations firms and so on. The truth is coming out.
Elmer: One
example of that is recent European Commission poll of 7,500 citizens
from all 15 European member states, 59% of whom said that Israel is
the "biggest threat to world peace". Under the charge of anti-Semitism,
the Commissioner of the European Union actually apologized to Israel
for the opinion of its citizens [Sydney Morning Herald, 5 November 2003].
How significant is this type of capitulation in terms of the EU as a
player, a broker in the peace process - especially given their important
role at a time when American-Israeli rejectionism is at and all-time
high.
Ashrawi:
The EU has been excluded and shoved aside by the Americans and by Israel.
Even the Quartet as a whole, as a mechanism, has been sidelined. The
US thinks it has a monopoly on the peace process. And of course, this
is part of the 14 reservations that Israel had on the Roadmap: they
didn't want to deal with anybody but the American administration. The
EU and the Quartet have been excluded even from monitoring and verification,
let alone policy-making and oversight.
So, I am not talking
about the official level of the EU, because quite often they weigh their
interests and their relations with the US on the basis of self-interest.
They will not enter into a confrontation with the US on the basis of
Palestine, for example. They will when it comes to issues like Iraq
- they have the question of funding, the question of their own interests,
and so on. But when it comes to the peace process they have allowed
the US to call the shots, and they were willing to play the game according
to American rules. And they say so: 'We are not competing with the US,
we are not an alternative to the US, we are not working at cross-purposes
with the US, we will not undermine them.' This is constantly repeated.
But the US has undermined
and excluded them. So even though many people say the official European
position is better than the American position in terms of its recognition
of Palestinian self-determination and so on, it is still not translated
into policy, and they still play second fiddle to the US.
Public opinion in
Europe is much more knowledgeable and active. It is closer, it is more
informed, it is more involved, its an activist public opinion.
So you will see huge demonstrations, not just anti-war but pro-peace,
pro-Palestinian/Israeli peace, pro-human rights, and so on. And that
was reflected in the poll that said that 59% saw Israel as a threat
to world peace, because they know Israel has an arsenal of weapons of
mass destruction, nuclear weapons, that it is totally non-transparent
and totally unaccountable, and acting with full impunity. And they know
what Israel is doing to the Palestinians, and they know it is a major
destabilizing factor throughout the region, and it is a source of extremism.
Nobody apologizes
for the public opinion poll, nobody castigates a whole population -
it is their opinion. Its ridiculous.
Elmer: In
an interview in Ha'aretz entitled "Maximum Jews, Minimum Palestinians,"
Israeli Cabinet Minister, Ehud Olmert, said that because of demographics
the Palestinians are quickly losing interest in the two-state solution.
He called for a unilateral Israeli drawing of the borders of a Palestinian
state, for in not too long the Jews will be a minority on this land.
"That would mean the end of the Jewish State" [Ha'aretz, 14
November 2003]. Can you comment on this?
Ashrawi:
It's not a question of demography, you see, that is playing by racist
rules. I have always felt that Palestine - and Palestine has historically
been - pluralistic. It has never been exclusive to either ethnic or
religious groups. It has always been open and diverse, historically.
So to reduce the issue to one of democracy is not only racist, it misses
the point. I dont believe that there should be any exclusivist
approach, whether Palestinian or Israeli.
However, the essence
of Zionism as the building of a state that is exclusively or predominantly
Jewish, in a sense is being negated by Sharons extremist policies
- any ideology taken to an extreme will self-negate. Zionism has been
self-negated, as it continues to steal land thinking that it can have
the land without the people.
They will not be
able to carry out massive ethnic cleansing, or repeat the tragedy of
1948. The Palestinians are not going to disappear, or expel themselves,
or become another wave of refugees. And in that sense, yes, the Palestinians
in historical Palestine will ultimately become a majority. But there
are Palestinian Muslims, there are Palestinians Christians and there
are Palestinian Jews that is the issue. That is what scares people
like Olmert and others who want to preserve the purity of the Jewish
state by separation.
Olmert's statements
are extremely racist because he wants to have the land without the people.
He is redrawing borders unilaterally from a position of power and occupation,
to annex over 50% of the West Bank in places where there is more land
and fewer people.
They will end up
implementing the Sharon policy of the Bantustans, the isolated ghettos,
the 'populations centres' - you can call them whatever you want - provided
Israel can annex 58% of the West Bank. They are willing to leave us
with about 42% of the West Bank in these ghettos, and they are willing
to surround us with settlements and security fences
We will be
like animals in the zoo. And that certainly would destroy the chance
of a two-state solution.
I have no problem
with a two-state solution, but I want Palestine to be pluralistic, even
if it is only 22% [West Bank and Gaza Strip] of historical Palestine.
But we are not going to call these Bantustans a state. They are not
going to get away with it. And there is no unilateral solution based
on force or racism.
Elmer: What
role does the wall play in all of this?
Ashrawi:
The wall creates unilateral boundaries. The wall is a political wall.
It is a wall of annexation, a wall of apartheid, and a wall of imprisonment.
It is really imprisoning Palestinians, and it is creating facts on the
ground that are ending the possibility of a Palestinian state with any
territorial contiguity or viability. It is stealing water sources, it
is stealing fertile land, it is isolating entire Palestinian communities
and villages. And it is creating eight separate ghettos, reserved for
Palestinians, in the belly of Israel, surrounded by this horrible wall.
They think that the Palestinians will accept their captivity, and accept
the transformation of the West Bank from a massive prison to a series
of isolation cells.
Elmer: In
a recent poll 85% of Palestinians said that the PA is corrupt and 90%
called for reform. Can elections or reform take place under the climate
of Israeli siege? Is the stalemate scenario of corrupt and incompetent
leadership doomed to continue as long as the siege continues?
Ashrawi:
We should have systems of accountability within Palestine. There is
no excuse for corruption, abuse of power, and misuse of public funds.
I am not an apologist for this type of abuse. I will not accept it.
There are areas that are under our control, issues that are under our
control, that we should discharge with honesty, with integrity, and
with responsibility.
The Palestinian
people deserve a system of governance that is honest, that is transparent,
and that looks after them and their interests rather than individual
self-interest in a power struggle. So it think that reform is not only
possible it is imperative, even under occupation.
We lived under occupation
for decades and we had elections, even underground. We taught underground
when schools and universities were closed, we built our own reality
and we showed the true meaning of civil resistance - not to accept the
distorted reality imposed by force of arms, by the occupation, but to
create our own reality, a human, democratic, active and vibrant reality,
and to survive and to thrive.
Now we find ourselves
facing two problems. On the one hand, among the Authority, and I am
not generalizing, you have people who abuse their power and their public
trust. Within the opposition you have people who have usurped the decision
- without being elected - that they have the right to carry out suicide
bombings in the name of all Palestinians.
So we ended up being
reduced to this dual label of corruption and terrorism. Internationally,
globally, in terms of peoples' perception, we have lost the humanity,
the integrity and the justice of the cause. People deal with us through
these reduced stereotypes and labels. This is unfair. Both the Authority
and the opposition have to stop, and it is our turn, as the people,
the civil society, to hold them accountable and make them stop. They
are doing the Palestinian people a disservice; they are undermining
the justice and integrity of our cause.
Elmer: From
the Israeli point of view, the 'peace-process' has always been a security
arrangement rather than a political solution to the conflict.
Ashrawi:
Well, that is the issue. And they define security only as military.
We define security as human security - not just personal, but territorial,
economic, geographic, historical, identity, existential, there are all
sorts of different aspects to human security. But the Israelis have
defined their own security as military security, as personal security
based on military force. This is not only regressive, it is counter-productive.
They have placed their version of security as an exclusive right, regardless
of the occupation and the total destruction of the security of the Palestinians
in every way shape or form. This is a non-starter. This is no way to
bring about security to either people.
Security is not
a pre-requisite to peace. If we were all secure and happy we wouldn't
need a peace process, we wouldn't need a solution. You sign agreements
in order to bring security to both people. An occupier cannot expect
a pleasant and safe and moral and happy occupation, and cannot expect
to tame a people under occupation or expect them to accept their captivity,
and lie down and die quietly. There is no such thing as a moral occupation
or a safe occupation. All of these negative waves and aspects of behaviour
are a result of the occupation itself. It is post-neo-colonial colonialism,
and that has to be addressed as the cause. And of course the historical
rectification of the Palestinian tragedy has to take place. That is
how you resolve the issue of security for everybody.
Elmer: On
that note, let me ask you about the Geneva Initiative. I have just spent
three months in Palestine and many people have said to me that the Geneva
Initiative does not adequately deal with the Palestinian refugees, does
not deal acceptably with the diaspora Palestinians who comprise, what,
60% of the Palestinian population. Can you comment on this? Can there
be a peace settlement that does not justly deal with the Palestinian
refugee question?
Ashrawi:
No, there is no way in which you can have genuine peace if you do not
solve and address in a just and comprehensive way the Palestinian refugee
question. This is an essential human aspect, not just a demographic
a question. You cannot tell five and a half million Palestinians 'We
have a solution that excludes you or perpetuates the injustice to you.'
There has to be a just solution to the refugee question if there is
to be a legitimate and lasting solution to the conflict.
The Geneva Initiative,
like many others of its kind, is useful in a way because it breaks the
monopoly on political discourse that the extremists have. It tells people
on both sides that they can talk peace, that there is an impetus for
peace, that there are partners on either side. Maybe is it a starting
point, I dont really think its a final point. I dont
think one should look at it as a finished deal. It probably is just
a statement in the making in order to generate negotiations. I dont
know how far they will go with it, but certainly when there are serious
official negotiations all of these issues have to be put on the table
and addressed legally and with justice.
Elmer: After
three months of hearing that the Roadmap is dead, the UN Security Council
unanimously passed it yesterday.
Ashrawi: Israel
has been busy systematically massacring the Roadmap. The incorporation
of the 14 reservations in the implementation, if not in the text, have
undermined the essence of the Roadmap. The Americans said that they
would not change the text, but that they would take the Israeli reservations
into consideration when it came to implementation. So they have begun
adopting the Israeli approach a sequential approach, conditionality,
exclusion of the Europeans, the UN and the Quartet.
And now the Palestinians
are supposed to turn the other cheek, to uniformly become perfect Christians
while Israel can kill and destroy and steal land and build walls and
so on without accountability. The Roadmap is being distorted and hijacked
by Israel.
Both Israel and
the US fought against having the Roadmap go to the Security Council
- despite the fact that the US became one of the, if not the, major
drafter of the Roadmap. The US has repeatedly refused to allow any issue
to go to the Security Council and to be passed without an American veto,
or without this new stipulation that the resolutions has to condemn
Palestinian terrorism, including Hamas and Jihad by name. So, I wonder
whether the Roadmap will suffer the same fate as other resolutions,
starting from 181 through 242, 338, 339, up to 1397, 1402, 1403...
Israel immediately
said that it is not going to comply, that it doesn't care, and that
it will go on building the wall, that it will not withdraw, that it
will not remove the settlements or outposts. So what do you do? You
have a rogue country, clearly, that has historically refused to implement
every single UN Resolution. And now there is another resolution. Is
this just another part of a sinister pattern or will there be political
will to make Israel comply? I doubt it.
In his speech yesterday
in London, Bush said that Israel should stop building the wall. So,
the Israelis thumbed their nose at him again, yet Bush will go on saying,
"Sharon is a man of peace."
Elmer: You
closed your acceptance speech in Sydney by saying, "we are hurtling
toward the abyss" does the future hold hope for a sea change
in the longest military occupation in modern history?
Ashrawi:
Well, when I talk about hurtling toward the abyss it doesnt mean
that I am very hopeful. But I am confident that no matter how bad things
get, there is a determination, a will, a spirit on the part of the Palestinian
people, and counterparts throughout the world, who believe in justice,
who believe in a just peace, who havent given up, who havent
surrendered to despair and destruction, who havent abandoned their
will. Thats my confidence. It comes from a real belief in the
justice of the cause and in the inevitability of a just solution. There
can be no stability, no security, no peace for anyone in the region
if there is no genuine and just resolution to the Palestinian question.
It is a matter of time and determination.
We were slated for
obliteration in 1948, we were told that we didnt exist. People
thought we would disappear, people thought we would be dissolved, people
thought we would accept the fact of our negation. But we didnt.
We persisted, we endured, we stayed on our own land, with our own culture
and history and rights. And we will continue.
All colonial experiences
have failed, and all colonizers have learned that you cannot subjugate
a nation, a people, forever. Armies can defeat other armies, but they
cannot defeat the will of a people. This is a lesson that Israel has
to understand. And I am confident there will be a new leadership in
Israel. The failed and tragic policies of Sharon, Mofaz and their ilk
will be proven to the Israeli people and everyone else - as lethal.
I am sure that there
will be an awakening, as we are witnessing, among Israeli public opinion.
There will be a change and there will be genuine solidarity and support
globally for the Palestinian people. And ultimately Israel will be treated
like any other state: not above the law, and not with preferential treatment.
Hanan Ashrawi is
an elected member of the Palestinian Legislative Council and a former
spokeswoman for the PLO. She founder and Secretary General of MIFTAH
- The Palestinian Initiative for the Promotion of Global Dialogue and
Democracy and the author of several books, including This Side of Peace
- a personal, insider account of the negotiations that led to the Oslo
Accords. She has been a member of the Palestinian delegation in peace
negotiations in various capacities since the 1991 Madrid Conference.
Jon Elmer is the
editor of the online journal FromOccupiedPalestine.org. He has been
reporting from Palestine since September.
* Interview conducted
in Ramallah, 21 November 2003